PlayStation Move
Papercut's picture
Submitted by Papercut on Thu, 11/03/2010 - 10:17

Superbly derivative. Which is to say, utterly pointless compared to the more interesting, and, crucially, different tech of Natal.

http://kotaku.com/5490554/first-look-at-the-delicious-playstation-move/gallery/

PS Move is a straight rip of the Wii Remote + Nunchuk, except the Nunchuk equivalent is wireless and doesn't have a motion sensor. And instead of infra red it uses the PSEye to track a coloured ball (someone please explain why this isn't in fact a backwards step - a more expensive, less reliable tracking system?).

Hopeless. Hopefully PS3 owners are not dopey enough to have avoided the Wii completely if they had any interest in motion controlled games, and would have no particular interest in this 'upgrade'. The total lack of innovation deserves nothing more than total apathy.

Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 10:47

Apathy no. Contempt yes. It looks like total shit. It would probably work alright with Samba de Amigo I suppose Smile.

As for Project Natal, it's interesting technically, but it's such a radical departure from what we know that it's going to have an uphill battle imo. Probably be good for games like Police Trainer, which is pretty limited.

Madbury

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 11:40

Agreed: it is contemptible, I meant more that I would hope for apathy from PS3 owners.

When I first saw those promo pictures, I thought they were literally a joke. They look like shopped versions of the first Wii Remote promo shots that Nintendo released five years ago.

Compare and contrast:

http://uk.cube.ign.com/dor/articles/651275/tgs-2005-hands-on-the-revolution-controller/images/hands-on-the-revolution-controller-20050915054930644.html

Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 11:54

It is shocking, but the way the writer at Kotaku constantly spins every aspect of the product hints at the attitude towards this product. They'll lap it up, everything which is exactly the same as what Nintendo did will be regarded as superior, and everything that's either missing or just plain wrong will be regarded as an improvement too.

That bit about the Wii Remote buttons being confusing and how the unit cannot track in the Z-axis...unbelievable. The guy even tries to spin the lack of motion control in the side unit. Simplicity and versatility is what Nintendo have managed, the Wii Remote is a perfectly functional control pad before a remote control.

Saurian

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 12:04

Yeah, Totilo really lets the side down for Kotaku with his technical ignorance and easily-swayed enthusiasm. I can pretty much guarantee every time I'm reading something there and think 'this is based on rather a lot of ignorance and wishful thinking' that when I scroll back up his name will be at the top of the article.

Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 15:53

Does it really have colour trails!!? If so, it's the best thing ever and I'm buying lots of them.

They wouldn't lie to me would they? Shock If so I'll have a massive sad.

Saurian

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 16:02

Shame on you, shame on you all.

It's a perfectly reasonable attempt to.... and.... excellently crafted.... innovative.... genius... bringing it to the hardcore.... 3D!!!!!!.... only.... pickles.... patent avoidance.... sell those PSEyes we've got filling up the warehouse.... burn some RandD cash.....

I've not seen the coverage yet, saving it up for tonight, but I am really looking forward to it. Sounds the orsumz.

JibberX

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 16:17

I suppose on paper it's not all bad. I mean you've got 3 axis accellerometers, 3 axis gyro, a magnetic field measurement doohicky and the... err... bulb.

In theory this should work really well as a motion controller. I imagine it will be useless for anything where pointing accuracy is required, the tiniest error will throw the trig way out, but the bulb does provide a slightly different way of tracking to the pointer and should in theory make the 1 to 1 tracking even better than Wii Motion Plus which is already totally solid.

So yeah it's wii motion plus without the pointer... Perfect for Samba. I wonder if there's anyone at Sega who can see this as a way of selling Samba again, only this time not broken... They can't re-release on the Wii as that would be too embarassing.

Madbury

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 16:50

I'm not sure it would be the ideal way to sell samba because wouldn't you need the user to have 2 motion controllers? Unless they go down the bundle route with 2 motion controllers, but that could get abit pricey.

Rav

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 17:12

They reckon $99 for the PSEye, Move controller and 'subcontroller' (that is what they are calling the nunchuk).

So presumably around $70 for another controller set on top of that.

I think you could just use a Move controller and subcontroller combo for Samba, you wouldn't need the orb, you could do everything with the motion sensors and accelerometers.

With Move and Natal Sega probably have good reason to port the Wii version over with DLC to Live and PSN, and hopefully if that happened it would be worth them porting back to motion plus at the same time.

... or I could just turn my Dreamcast on :s

Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 17:21
Papercut wrote:

I think you could just use a Move controller and subcontroller combo for Samba, you wouldn't need the orb, you could do everything with the motion sensors and accelerometers.

From my understand, the subcontroller doesn't have any sort of motion control (no gyros of any sort), right? So do you mean, you would detect the subcontroller through motion dectection using the camera?

Rav

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 17:35

Yeah, initially it was reported only the main controller had motion controls, but this claims they both do:

http://kotaku.com/5490632/playstation-move-everything-you-need-to-know?skyline=true&s=i

Quote:

The Subcontroller also features a full-fledged motion sensor, just like the Move wand itself, unlike the Wii Remote Nunchuk's gyroscope which is fairly primitive in comparison.

I take that to mean both have Motion Plus-like sensors in them, and apparently they need calibrating in a similar way to the Motion Plus as well. If this is true, this is the one definite advantage over the Wii equivalent.

Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 18:15

http://www.develop-online.net/press-releases/56602/PlayStation-Move

Huh, thats abit weird because on the press release it claims that a DUAL SHOCK controller can be used in place of the subcontroller implying that it want have motion sensors.

Rav

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 21:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQK37qL2_E

Watch this, it'll make you want to cry. Then read the comments and try your hardest to resist the urge to jump off a building.

Saurian

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Posted: Thu, 11/03/2010 - 23:16

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing

JibberX

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Posted: Fri, 12/03/2010 - 10:02
Rav wrote:

Huh, thats abit weird because on the press release it claims that a DUAL SHOCK controller can be used in place of the subcontroller implying that it want have motion sensors.

It might mean you can use the sixaxis motion control to mimic the sub-controller instead?

It is a strange thing to point out though - of course you would be able to combine them, depending on how each game implements it's controls.

But yeah - no mention of sub-controller motion controls on there at all.

Papercut

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Posted: Fri, 12/03/2010 - 10:46
Saurian wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQK37qL2_E

Watch this, it'll make you want to cry. Then read the comments and try your hardest to resist the urge to jump off a building.

X_X It's like one of those awful Wii compilations that you find in the bargain bin in ASDA. I couldn't bring myself to read the comments I just don't have the stomach for it today.

Do Sony have a special charm vacuum that they run over their games to make sure they reach the right level of blandness before release? What they need is a Wii Sports (but better) to shift this thing what they've got there is Eye Toy play, but without the novelty factor.

Madbury

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Posted: Fri, 12/03/2010 - 11:01 Papercut

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Posted: Fri, 12/03/2010 - 11:08

Yeah but just look at it. The production is all over the shop, there's just no love in this thing. Fine as a tech demo, but not something the consumer should ever have to be put through.

I would wager we will see a Wii price drop around the launch of this thing. If Nintendo can get the price down to £100 then it will be uncomfortably close to PS Move. Might as well drop a little extra cash and get the Wii as opposed to take a gamble on this thing being supported.

Madbury

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Posted: Fri, 12/03/2010 - 11:21

I can't see them going to £100 for some time, but would expect £150 by Christmas. HMV have been selling the Wii Sports Resort pack for that much on and off since before Christmas.

Papercut

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Posted: Tue, 16/03/2010 - 17:08
Papercut wrote:

Yeah, Totilo really lets the side down for Kotaku with his technical ignorance and easily-swayed enthusiasm.

To give the man some credit, he has now posted something that gives more balance:

http://kotaku.com/5494509/sony-bright-light-wii-similarities-wont-deep+six-playstation-move

Although the original article was ridiculously over-enthusiastic, these points should have been included at the time.

Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 11:56 Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 12:21

It's all such bull. I hate the way they go on about these motion controls giving you "more" control, then showcase them with these simplistic little games which wouldn't tax your grandmother.

Saurian

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 13:41

DON'T WANT!1

Spagmasterswift

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 14:44

Watching that reminds of my school days with all that Nintendo vs. Sega bollocks, I'm surprised at the end he didn't whip out his penis and commence to show how its bigger than their competitors.

Rav

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 14:48

Agreed that the key to all this is matching the software to the input interface. If you take a look at the Wii there are some brilliant implementations of motion control that really wouldn't work with a conventional setup. Elebits is one that springs immediately to mind as an example that does give the player more control over the game environment. Resi 4 is another, the way the Wii allows the disconnection of the camera and where you're aiming is really very cool and something that is pretty cumbersome and non-immediate with a traditional dual analogue setup (WET on PS3 I'm looking at you).

Problems start to occur however when you try to retrofit motion control to a game design that basically doesn't need it, which is where I fear Project Natal is headed. The fact that someone thought it would be a good idea to use Geometry Wars as a tech demo for Project Natal shows to my mind a complete lack of understanding of the basics of good game design. I hope that Microsoft do prove me wrong.

Let's face it control 'technology' has played a significant role in defining games since the beginning.

Madbury

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 16:07

control technology IS games.

Just the recent blandification normalisation of the games universe thats brought about the desire to try new ideas by people like Sega and Nintendo who saw the waining of people's interest in games over the last 15 years...

I think the Xbox 360 controller is the zenith of that idea. Although the Cube pad had a great idea with the big thumb button... the only way that can improve with the tedium of the games universe is by just releasing a Kempston joystick again, make that the standard then people will have to start designing games again. Two buttons, one stick, fun. Two sticks, dpad, 10 buttons and 2 plungers, confusion.

JibberX

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Posted: Thu, 18/03/2010 - 17:45

Hmm not necessarily it's all about the right tool for the job isn't it, but yeah I do see your point. If you've ever played Splinter Cell you will have experienced the zenith in confusing control.

It's uber frustrating when you have a game that just doesn't have the controller to back it up. E.g. Samba on the Wii or Gun Valkyrie on the XBox; VOOT - twinsticks etc.

I have to say I'm a little dissapointed over the lightgun offerings on the Wii. I was hoping for a glut of arcade ports and decent on rails shooters. This doesn't appear to have happened Sad.

Madbury

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Posted: Tue, 30/03/2010 - 15:31

Looked at some of the tech demo's Sony were doing (on video) and it was all very impressive. Having to use two wands though, and err... the best example they could give was "building platforms in LittleBigPlanet"...

It doesn't feel like this has been gameplay driven eh... more tech driven...

The leaving elements in 3d space looked interesting... the only problem being, knowing where they are, involved seeing you in that space, the translation of where you are to where the virtual stuff is, is going to be, without the old spectacles, you can't really use that for anything at all?

I just can't work out how the translation of movement in these virtual spaces is going to be interesting without looking at an Avatar's ass or floaty hands all day?

JibberX

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Posted: Thu, 16/09/2010 - 12:15

So by chance I've been playing RE5 recently, and realised I want my Wii controls back.

So I've gone a bit wild and ordered the Move controllers (already have the camera), and RE5 Gold edition which supports them.

I am intrigued!

Papercut

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Posted: Thu, 16/09/2010 - 14:36

Interesting to see if they've tweaked it at all a la Resi4 Wii version. Capcom obviously know what they are doing.

It's going to be really interesting to see how this all pans out. Move to me seems to be more what I'm about compared to Kinect, but then you should never underestimate Sony's ability to completely arse-balls something up.

Madbury

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Posted: Thu, 16/09/2010 - 15:08

yeeeeaaaahhhh....

pfft, just not sure I give a crap.

Precision isn't the solution here.

Paper has explained the pricing system which explains why the adverts I've seen at bus stops appear, basically, misleading...

Do you even get demos you can download? I have the camera (somewhere), so the ice cream cone on its own would be £35... then I need a game... but not the nun controller as the sixcrapsis can duplicate that functionality?

JibberX

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Posted: Thu, 16/09/2010 - 15:24
Madbury wrote:

you should never underestimate Sony's ability to completely arse-balls something up.

So basically what you're saying is they have.

Madbury

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Posted: Mon, 20/09/2010 - 09:28
Papercut wrote:

I am intrigued!

So... technically the Move controller is vaguely equivalent to the Wii Remote with Wii Motion Plus, with the only significant difference being the camera vs. IR sensor.

After a days play the camera seems like a weaker design choice than IR. The light at the end is a distracting gimmick that I would rather wasn't there. Having each Wii Remote track the IR sensor separately is also a more reliable idea for multiple controllers.

What has irritated me about the press coverage of Move is the idea that it is somehow more accurate that the Wii Remote + Wii Motion Plus - this seems to be a total myth.

The pointer accuracy is equivalent, and in my experience the Wii does a better job of sensing depth movement (distance between IR spots vs. width of the spherical lamp).

Where the Move does something different appears to be in software only - if the camera loses sight of the ball, then it guesses where you are pointing based on gyro data. A lot of people theorised the Wii Remote would do something similar, but in fact very few Wii games bother to do this; this is not a feature of the system, or enforced in the SDK on the Wii.

The Move position guessing doesn't work well enough and is fairly pointless. Another aspect of Move is that games tend to freak out if they can't see the light ball, whereas Wii games do not.

I imagine both of these are Move software requirements set by Sony, who are trying to solve a problem that isn't really there.

Move 'calibration' seems to link the light ball position to the gyro position, which every game has squirrelled away somewhere, and needs to be performed when starting any Move game as far as I can tell. In practice this means having to recalibrate every time you shift from your initial position, which is in fact a poorer solution than the Wii manages to implement.

These are the only significant functional differences, and are purely software implementation choices. Nintendo do not seem to mandate this kind of behaviour, whereas every Move title I played behaved in this way. This must be why the press are suggesting the Move is more accurate, but this is superficial and misleading.

Less important changes...

  • Move controller has fewer buttons, so cannot really be rotated for different types of games (like Excite Truck etc.) as the buttons aren't there.
  • Button layout is poorer on the Move controller, the main move controller is too tall and too deeply set. Trigger buttons are over-engineered seemingly just so that they look different, and aren't as pleasant to use.
  • Built in rechargeable batteries are nice, but makes charging a bit of a mare. Its a pain in the arse to charge the main and sub controller separately, you can see why Nintendo made the Nunchuk wired. The non-wired freedom is nice though.
  • Making the sub controller wireless causes other problems, as the PS3 is limited to 7 wireless bluetooth devices only - 4 players cannot all use a main and sub controller.
  • The main Move controller feels a little too large and a little too heavy compared to the Wii Remote, but is a better 'size' compared to Wii Remote + Wii Motion Plus.

So, I have EyePet and Resident Evil 5, but Sony have put up enough demos to get a good idea what the first slew of Move games are like. Fair play to them for that.

EyePet Move Edition
Very similar to the camera only edition, it has been polished up a little more so some tasks are less specific and irritating, which is good. The original version used a magic card that the camera would recognise, which could only sense rotation on one axis. This is replaced with the Move wand in the Move edition, which allows virtual objects to be rotated more freely, a nice improvement, but no deal maker. International versions of this were delayed for Move controller support, which is now required in this edition.

Resident Evil 5 Gold Edition
The only game I played that made Move seem worthwhile. An exact replica of the RE4 Wii edition controls, no more, no less.

Tumble
Hmm. This a less fun version of Boom Blox, but competent enough. Absolutely horribly sparse but cumbersome Sony Europe presentation (how do they do it?) and a medicinally calmed instructional voice over. The game itself makes more use of the gyros for slower tower building sub-levels, which is the main distinguishing feature. Camera controls are dreadful and irritating. I'd had my fill after completing the demo, but it isn't without merit. The main problem is the presentation and plodding pace, which sucks the fun out of it.

Sports Champions
Pretty bad. The demo has disc golf and table tennis. disc golf manages to be poorer than the same in Tiger Woods Wii Motion Plus, and table tennis is equivalently irritating to the Wii Play version. Presentation is horrendously yank-centric. This is no where near challenging Wii Sports based on the demo, it's dreadful.

TV Superstars
Awful, feels tech demo-y and unfinished. This attempts to make use of the camera by pasting your mush on a 3D avatar thing, and throwing you at a series of mini games that revolve around riffs on members-of-the-public type TV shows. The presentation is appalling and embarrassing, the animated 2D faces are disturbing, and the mini games are poor clones of various Wii games. I can see this never being released, if Sony had any sense.

Echochrome II
This is more interesting, but could have been done just as well with Sixaxis motion control I reckon. You shine a light on suspended 3D cubes to cast a shadow behind them. The 3D blocks are placed such that a 2D platform can be created with the shadow that your little dude then trundles across. No system seller, but enjoyably diverting.

Racket Sports
Wii Sports Tennis with a ka-billion different game modes. Better than Sports Champions, but no where as well designed, or as much fun, as Wii Sports. There doesn't seem to be much point to it.

R.U.S.E
Nice motion controls on a visually interesting strategy game. The game itself might be a bit average, but the controls worked well, and are nicely intuitive.

Start the Party!
This is really just Eye Toy updated, and offers nothing over that other than grating presentation. To the point where I couldn't stand it after 5 mins. Sony are really getting that casual/family gaming shtick horribly wrong with all these games.

Kung Fu Rider
Quite nicely designed characters, crazy plot, fun sensibility - atrocious controls. Kart racer, but the steering is imprecise and no fun whatsoever. Like the worst initial Wii third party racer you can imagine.

... so there you go. Pretty weak. There is a real schism between Sony trying to ape Nintendo's Wii games (a failure every time), versus some slightly more original ideas that half work (Echochrome, Tumble to a degree, EyePet to a degree).

Overall: embarrassing/10.

Papercut

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Posted: Mon, 20/09/2010 - 10:02

Awesome o'clock. I feel like I have already played it now. The high street presence is an hilarious confusing mess as I figured it would be... I mean it was flying onto the shelves.

You've got like 3 combinations of hardware already, a usb port used for the camera and the the already kinda crappy charging situation.... don't some ps3s have only 2 usb ports?

I'd pick up a wand, but, technically its just not floating my boat. I can't see the price dropping... I'd get one for 20 quid, but 35 is a bit of a slap, especially if you need to get a game, although it sounds like the demos do the trick.

JibberX

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Posted: Mon, 20/09/2010 - 10:11

It's around £28 online for the Move controller, and £18 for the navigation controller.

You can use a sixaxis instead of the navigation controller, but it would be a crappy substitute. Too awkward to hold in one hand, was never designed for that.

So you are looking at £46 to get started with anything sensible, or £58 if you don't have the camera for online prices. That is £60 or £75 at high street prices.

All of which is incredibly misleading, when shops are advertising it as 'from £35'.

I also forgot...

The Shoot
A very average light gun game. The premise could be interesting, but as implemented comes across as a bit shoddy. There is a rudimentary combo system, which seems to be at odds with exploring what parts of the environments can be destroyed. It is HD, a little bland, and slowly paced.

Papercut

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Posted: Tue, 21/09/2010 - 08:45

There is also:

Heavy Rain Move Edition
This is a strange one. The original release had a constant stream of QTE styled button presses, which were unintuitive and a little annoying. You would think translating these to motion controls would be a step in the right direction, but it doesn't quite work. The movement icons are a little too vague, and the movements required are too precise, so it is even more frustrating to play. It is hard to judge whether prolonged play would improve this, as potentially you could learn each icon and how precise each move needed to be. The end result either way seems to have been to increase the barrier to input QTE commands, rather than reduce.

... the Move + Camera pack comes with a bonus disk, but this seems to contain the same demos available in the PSN store, and nothing more. For pretty much every demo I played, apart from Sports Champions maybe, I got the feeling there was little else to see.

I did run through Lost in Nightmares from RE5 last night, and enjoyed it. Just like the Wii version of RE4, the pointer aiming makes a big difference in speeding up the game and reducing how cumbersome the pad controls are, which makes the whole thing more fun. Perhaps Move games not published by Sony will be the ones to look out for, but this first batch is a right old load of shit.

Papercut

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Posted: Mon, 27/09/2010 - 21:26

Thanks for the detailed feedback on Move and for confirming everyhthing I always suspected (particularly the fact that its improved precision over the Wii was just Sony Spin-Doctoring...).

Ady

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Posted: Fri, 07/01/2011 - 11:22

So yeah, I had some games knocking about, took them in and swapped them for a PlayStation Move Motion Controller and Sub Controller, thanks entirely to Paper joking about it.

Fortunately the demos are there for a high proportion of games, if not all of them... once you decipher the madness of the PSN Store, at least Move titles are all grouped. Its the nested groups that is maddening and the amount of "clicks" it takes to get anything downloaded, why default to download in the foreground?

Sports Champions is a totally fine rip off of Wii Sports Resort with that slightly crap hyper real presentation that only Sony manage to do, if you find PlayStation Home spooky then this is the same aesthetic. The table tennis isn't quite as tight as Wii Sports Resort, I think the "realism" breaks the leniency you get from Miis running around. The disc golf is as good as the Wii Sports Resort too, but again the hyper realness is just a little odd.

KungFu Rider is probably a good game in that throw away PlayStation way, its Studio Japan and they are usually one step away from making something decent. The motion controls don't really add up to a decent experience, its got that motion controls for the sake of it vibe, like the early Wii games. Typical half arsed translation job, its obviously a Japanese game... but with a strange new voice over on the characters, just japanese and subs would've been fine surely?

And that was about all I managed.

As a rule though the motion and the pointery stuff appears on a par with the Wii Remote Plus, I can see the extra resolution giving the impression of greater fidelity. The glowing globe is a massive distraction, KungFu Rider uses the globe with some interesting ideas, Red when you make a mistake etc etc... but in the end it is exactly like having a light bulb in your hand and the inherent distraction you'd expect.

Nothing has used the sub controller yet, thats quite good as Paper suggested for just navigating the XMB and all that except the fact that mysteriously the sub controller only has X and O buttons not triangle and square... so, say pausing downloads is impossible. In fact as a rule the placement of the physical buttons and their tactility on both Move controllers is hilariously bad.

The motion controller has all the normal PS face buttons, plus a strange icons move buttons, effectively the A on the Wii Remote, the trigger is called T, the start and select buttons are on the sides, pretty much inaccessible and impossible to find. The Sub Controller is just the normal sixaxis cut in half, with two face buttons, but L1 and L2... its just a bit messy.

Paper has recommended Resident Evil 5 Gold, which I've never played, so that was cheap, so I'll have a wangle through that once it appears.

JibberX

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Posted: Mon, 10/01/2011 - 11:17

I think it's actually better for lightgun shooter than Wii remote -minus plus, but hey ho.

The navigation of the PS3 dash is bloody painful with motion control. It needs a redesign to be more point and shooty.

Madbury

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Posted: Mon, 10/01/2011 - 11:40

I whittled through a few more demos. I think Paper has mentioned it, but the calibration is getting a little tiresome now. But then, if you are going through the demos, all the different calibration techniques would be dull.

Still, that kinda points to a problem with the design, when you hold the frame of reference for the device and not the TV.

So, yeah, Echochrome ii was a bit dull, Time Crisis was a bit dull, but I've never got on with Time Crisis as a thing anyways. What else was there? Some ropey platformer, that wasn't that interesting.

Looking forward to RE5, I think I might be able to drag my way through that and it might be cohesive enough to not have to recalibrate every 30 seconds.

JibberX

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Posted: Mon, 10/01/2011 - 11:44

Hmm, I sort of like Raising Storm. It's certainly better then Time Crisis 4.

Madbury

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Posted: Mon, 10/01/2011 - 11:44

That was alot more cynical than usual. Blame fatigue.

I have to say, on a positive note, if you don't think about it... it sort of integrates... ok no it doesn't.

Still, at least they've tried. But where are the games?

JibberX

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Posted: Wed, 15/06/2011 - 10:22

Kinect might have just got pwn'd:

http://uk.kotaku.com/5812066/did-the-ps-move-just-get-a-little-more-sexy/gallery/

I remember playing the arcade version of that in Rhyl.

Papercut

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